Forest

Love and Nature wrote:

I think this is a great example how so many of us has lost touch with the nature and "real world". It's after all just a little mouse. And I'm not trying to be sarcastic or anything nor point finger, just thinking out loud. Generation by generation we become more alienated from the nature.

Edit: And I just learned musophobia is one of the most common specific phobias. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear_of_mice_and_rats

Uan aa Boa wrote:

I see what you're saying, and personally when it's happened to me having mice around the house hasn't bothered me, but it clearly causes distress to FuF on a visceral, instinctive level. The way some people freak out around spiders might also suggest a disconnect from nature (if you're not in the tropics what are they going to do to you anyway?) but that's no comfort to the person having that reaction. A colleague of mine grew up and still lives on a farm so she's not squeamish or unfamiliar with the animal kingdom, but at the first sign of any kind of rodent all you'll see of her is her back vanishing into the distance. I have things I'm uncomfortable with that seem inexplicable to others - maybe you do too. Do we have any compelling reason to think these reactions happened less in the past?

I kinda agree with you both.

Some fears, for example the fear of snakes, are thought to be instinctual in primates. They were dangerous to us throughout the course of evolution, and we have come to develop a natural, often irrepressible disgust to and fear of them; and this kneejerk reaction is meant to keep us alive. Take a chimp that has never seen a snake, expose them to one, and they will be unsettled.

I am not sure if the fear of mice has evolutionary origins like this, or whether it is mainly culturally conditioned. Anyone who knows a bit about history knows about how devastating the Black Death was, and that mice were the main vectors for the fleas that carried the plague bacterium. While plague is no longer a concern in many parts of the globe (incl. Eastern US), it is perhaps hard to shake off the deeply engrained knowledge of how dangerous mice and rats have been to us for a long time.

What Uan says perfectly captures how I feel. It is more or less a visceral reaction. It may not be a very rational fear, but most fears aren't anyway. It just makes me intensely uncomfortable.

Verdant Haven wrote:

Technically correct about the use of feline vs feild, but one must be careful with the term "big cat." That term includes cheetahs and cougars, neither of which are pantherines - both of those are actually genus Felinae!

As an aside, while "feline" vs "felid" is in this case a sub-family distinction, the "prefix-ine" terms aren't always that. "Leporine" means rabbit-like based on the family Leporidae. "Vulpine" means fox-like, derived from the tribe Vulpini. "Lupine" means wolf-related and "Leonine" means lion-related, with both terms deriving directly from a specific species term (C. lupus and P. leo respectively).

Basically, it all comes down to context. When using the term as a noun, such as in most scientific usage, the distinction between terms like feline vs felid is important. When using it as an adjective, like in the majority of daily or casual speech one hears, that distinction is neither intended nor relevant. It's basically a fancy way to say "cat-like" (or dog-like, fox-like, wolf-like, bear-like, etc).

Yeah I know that Cheetahs and Pumas are felines, I just didn’t realize that the term Big Cats included them.

And thanks for the tip with -ines, I had always thought that -one corresponded with -inae, which is the suffix for most subfamilies

Frieden-und Freudenland wrote:

I am not sure if the fear of mice has evolutionary origins like this, or whether it is mainly culturally conditioned. Anyone who knows a bit about history knows about how devastating the Black Death was, and that mice were the main vectors for the fleas that carried the plague bacterium. While plague is no longer a concern in many parts of the globe (incl. Eastern US), it is perhaps hard to shake off the deeply engrained knowledge of how dangerous mice and rats have been to us for a long time.

The Black Death is actually know as the Second Plague Pandemic, with the so-called First Plague Pandemic lasting from 541-767CE (roughly 600 years before the Black Death). However, it's widely accepted that Yersinia pestis, the species of bacteria which causes the disease, has been infecting humans since prehistoric times. When you mention mice as the carriers of the flea vector, I think you're mixing that up with the idea that black rats spread the plague. This in itself is something of a misconception; while Y. pestis likely hitched a ride to Europe via black rats that stowed away on merchant ships, once it arrived onshore in Europe it was transmitted primarily by human fleas (which were rife because living conditions were so filthy) and person-to-person aerosol contact.

That's not to say that mice and rats aren't carriers of disease in a more general sense. I don't doubt that mice and rats have been transmitting diseases to humans since prehistoric times, and that could mean there is an evolutionary origin to the fear of rodents in the same way that our fear of the grotesque probably originates from prehistoric ideas of what 'healthy' and 'infectious' look like.

Frieden-und Freudenland wrote:

Thank you. I will now have nightmares about this tonight.

Also, murine is a nice adjective. Not sure how often it will come handy, but it is useful to know. Putting it in the same compartment of my brain where I have fancy Latin adjectives like bovine, porcine, ursine, etc.

Erinaceous is, I think, my favorite adjective of that type.

Frieden-und Freudenland wrote:

I kinda agree with you both.

Some fears, for example the fear of snakes, are thought to be instinctual in primates. They were dangerous to us throughout the course of evolution, and we have come to develop a natural, often irrepressible disgust to and fear of them; and this kneejerk reaction is meant to keep us alive. Take a chimp that has never seen a snake, expose them to one, and they will be unsettled.

I am not sure if the fear of mice has evolutionary origins like this, or whether it is mainly culturally conditioned. Anyone who knows a bit about history knows about how devastating the Black Death was, and that mice were the main vectors for the fleas that carried the plague bacterium. While plague is no longer a concern in many parts of the globe (incl. Eastern US), it is perhaps hard to shake off the deeply engrained knowledge of how dangerous mice and rats have been to us for a long time.

What Uan says perfectly captures how I feel. It is more or less a visceral reaction. It may not be a very rational fear, but most fears aren't anyway. It just makes me intensely uncomfortable.

There's certainly an element of cultural, or at least geographical, conditioning. Here in New England mice are pretty common, but there are zero lizards, nearly no large spiders, and not too many cockroaches. If someone from around here encountered one of those like you did with your mouse -- even if they were in another country -- they'd likely have the same reaction as you. Mice, on the other hand, are just "ugh, we've got some mice". But there's nothing inherently more dangerous about a lizard or a cockroach compared to a mouse. Just what we've gotten used to.

Mount Seymour wrote:

Erinaceous is, I think, my favorite adjective of that type.

There's certainly an element of cultural, or at least geographical, conditioning. Here in New England mice are pretty common, but there are zero lizards, nearly no large spiders, and not too many cockroaches. If someone from around here encountered one of those like you did with your mouse -- even if they were in another country -- they'd likely have the same reaction as you. Mice, on the other hand, are just "ugh, we've got some mice". But there's nothing inherently more dangerous about a lizard or a cockroach compared to a mouse. Just what we've gotten used to.

Yup, and that is certainly different for me. In Istanbul, we occasionally had issues with the so-called Oriental cockroaches. Disgusting, to be sure, but not as unsettling to me as mice are. A born-and-raised New Englander might find this reverse asymmetry baffling.

Ruinenlust wrote:

Wow, an Uan aa Boa, Palos Heights, and Darths and Droids post back-to-back-to-back! It's like old times. :-)

...old times? Am I considered part of the regional elite now? Hmmm... eh, I'll take it.

Darths and Droids wrote:

...old times? Am I considered part of the regional elite now? Hmmm... eh, I'll take it.

Thank Hiort I keep CTE'ing, else people would keep calling me old too.

Mount Seymour wrote:

Erinaceous is, I think, my favorite adjective of that type.

There's certainly an element of cultural, or at least geographical, conditioning. Here in New England mice are pretty common, but there are zero lizards, nearly no large spiders, and not too many cockroaches. If someone from around here encountered one of those like you did with your mouse -- even if they were in another country -- they'd likely have the same reaction as you. Mice, on the other hand, are just "ugh, we've got some mice". But there's nothing inherently more dangerous about a lizard or a cockroach compared to a mouse. Just what we've gotten used to.

Where I live in Australia, I think I've seen a mouse maybe once in my entire life, and I'm pretty sure it was already dead too.

Spiders, on the other hand? Well summer has only just begun and they are driving me mad with how many there are even inside the house. I'm not really scared of them, but I still worry when I see one in certain places.

Lizards are uncommon but really chill creatures minding their own business, nearly always outside. Our dog attacked one once but sadly I couldn't get her away before its injuries got too bad.

Guys. Yesterday I got on and we were talking about world assembly fraud and today we’re talking about Felinae
and stuff.

Lura wrote:

Where I live in Australia, I think I've seen a mouse maybe once in my entire life, and I'm pretty sure it was already dead too.

Spiders, on the other hand? Well summer has only just begun and they are driving me mad with how many there are even inside the house. I'm not really scared of them, but I still worry when I see one in certain places.

Lizards are uncommon but really chill creatures minding their own business, nearly always outside. Our dog attacked one once but sadly I couldn't get her away before its injuries got too bad.

Here in New Jersey we get a lot of Deer, Squirrels, Chipmunks, and even the occasional fox

Bugs-wise, we have a lot of spiders (though probably not as many as you), which I am deathly afraid of