Lorania Board

Tai Pei wrote:

I am sad to inform the citizens of Lorania that I am currently facing a shortage of funny.

My funny stock is running out. :(

The worst funny crisis of the century

Without our main funny supplier, the region has no funny

We are doomed

Tai Pei wrote:

I am sad to inform the citizens of Lorania that I am currently facing a shortage of funny.

My funny stock is running out. :(

time to commit die

I agree with this on a spiritual level.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXf_JSrI0BM

Galactic Powers wrote:

The worst funny crisis of the century

Without our main funny supplier, the region has no funny

We are doomed

Nah, it's simple. I'll just go to another region, and then once I come back, more funny will follow. Foolproof strategy.

Tai Pei wrote:

I am sad to inform the citizens of Lorania that I am currently facing a shortage of funny.

My funny stock is running out. :(

Oh nooo :(
_________________________________

Any updates on the voting system yet?

i’m still of the opinion we should ask, perhaps on a forum, how other regions have implemented ranked voting, we surely can’t be the first. does anyone else more experienced with forums want to do it, or shall i? i’m not quite sure where to ask

Matroyska wrote:

i really can’t decide if it’s worse for one of us to tell you or to let you look it up for yourself. if you do google it just brace yourself for some things you might not be able to unsee

Just tell me. In another region they were talking about country humans and I looked it up. Instant regret

Matroyska wrote:

i’m still of the opinion we should ask, perhaps on a forum, how other regions have implemented ranked voting, we surely can’t be the first. does anyone else more experienced with forums want to do it, or shall i? i’m not quite sure where to ask

I will

You can't say that!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gktP1vk3nv0

Macari wrote:

Oh nooo :(
_________________________________

Any updates on the voting system yet?

It seems no-one else but you and me have any interest in debating it.

I’m waiting for us to vote on them.

Ogliacia wrote:

It seems no-one else but you and me have any interest in debating it.

I’m waiting for us to vote on them.

Im telling you, just game end democracy

Galactic Powers wrote:

Im telling you, just game end democracy

Reject democracy embrace banana duck.

Matroyska wrote:

i’m still of the opinion we should ask, perhaps on a forum, how other regions have implemented ranked voting, we surely can’t be the first. does anyone else more experienced with forums want to do it, or shall i? i’m not quite sure where to ask

I'm extremely sorry, but the ns forum crowd linked to a Wikipedia page. I've could've done it on my own.

Sirian wrote:

I'm extremely sorry, but the ns forum crowd linked to a Wikipedia page. I've could've done it on my own.

don’t worry about it.

tbh, i’ve been thinking about this for a while and i feel we might have overlooked the simplest option: voting on the rmb. it’s publicly available, so there’s no threat of election officer corruption; you can state your preferences all in one post, so it only needs to take a day, or however long we decide; and with the caveat that once you place your vote you can’t edit it, and you must copy paste from a predefined format so only legitimate ballots are counted, i don’t see why this couldn’t work. the only issue i can think of is the right to vote secretly to avoid coercion, but that’s simply not compatible with having no risk of fraud.
as to which ranked voting system we use, it doesn’t need to be overcomplicated, and i suggest we use the one originally set out by Seven Seas in their bill.
thoughts?

Matroyska wrote:

don’t worry about it.

tbh, i’ve been thinking about this for a while and i feel we might have overlooked the simplest option: voting on the rmb. it’s publicly available, so there’s no threat of election officer corruption; you can state your preferences all in one post, so it only needs to take a day, or however long we decide; and with the caveat that once you place your vote you can’t edit it, and you must copy paste from a predefined format so only legitimate ballots are counted, i don’t see why this couldn’t work. the only issue i can think of is the right to vote secretly to avoid coercion, but that’s simply not compatible with having no risk of fraud.
as to which ranked voting system we use, it doesn’t need to be overcomplicated, and i suggest we use the one originally set out by Seven Seas in their bill.
thoughts?

But what if one of the other voting systems is more accepted? Personally, we need to vote on the voting systems.

Here's the list:
UPDATED - Ideas so far - with pros and cons

1. Outsourced Poll - Proposed by Seven Seas

   • Pros - Quick, Eliminates Spoiler Effect.

   • Cons - Anonymity Issues, Allows for Tampering with Results.

2. 3-Poll System - Proposed by Ogliacia

   • Pros - Eliminates Spoiler Effect, More likely for a 'tolerated by all' candidate to win - Regional Unity.

   • Cons - Issues when selecting the 2 most popular candidates, Takes 72 Hours.

3. 2-Poll System - Proposed by 2-4-Dichlorophenoxyacetic Acid

   • Pros - Eliminates Spoiler Effect.

   • Cons - Issues when selecting the 2 most popular candidates.

4. Separate Region/RMB System - Proposed by Sail Nation

   • Pros - Quick, Eliminates Spoiler Effect, More likely for a 'tolerated by all' candidate to win - Regional Unity.

   • Cons - No automatic tallying system, Bit of an ask for voters, Extra region needed.

5. 1 Poll per Rank System - Proposed by Seven Seas

   • Pros - Eliminates Spoiler Effect.

   • Cons - Takes 72 hours or longer.

6. (Current) First-Past-The-Post System - Proposed by Anonymous

   • Pros - Quick.

   • Cons - Spoiler Effect.

7. Sortition-Of-Candidates System - Proposed by Tiddles the Cat

   • Pros - None.

   • Cons - Undemocratic, Allows for Tampering with Results.

Instruction
Everyone, please state your preferences in this format:

By Rank:
A. 5
B. 2
C. 1
D. 3
E. 4
F. 6
G. 7

By Approval:
A. NOT APPROVED
B. APPROVED
C. APPROVED
D. APPROVED
E. NOT APPROVED
F. NOT APPROVED
G. NOT APPROVED

This is so we can try and find the most tolerable voting system for everyone. This is done by checking the voting system with the most approvals. In the event of a tie, I shall check the rankings, and the system with lowest overall ranking (most liked) out of the tied systems.

For Example:

I look for the voting system with the most approvals, and find 2 with 5 approvals each.

Voting System 1: 5 Approvals
Voting System 2: 5 Approvals
Voting System 3: 4 Approvals
Voting System 4: 3 Approvals
Voting System 5: 2 Approvals

I then look for the system (out of the 2) with the lowest overall ranking.

Voting System 1: 1, 2, 3, 2, 3 = 2.2 overall
Voting System 2: 2, 3, 1, 2, 1 = 1.8 overall (Winning System)
It isn’t really a referendum, just a RMB based poll, just so we can get an idea people’s preferences. We need to make a decision on this relatively soon, otherwise we’ll just be endlessly bickering about voting systems. I carefully thought about this way of calculating the most ‘tolerated by all’ voting system, and I believe it’s the way forward. Let’s just give this poll a go, and see where the different voting systems stand.

I know the calculation seems a bit complicated, but it really isn't. It simply requires respondents to rank their favourite voting systems, then say which ones they can approve and not approve. After that, I just count the voting system with the most approvals. If 2 systems come joint first, I'll calculate which one (on average) is the most highly ranked. In the end, we'll have mathematically calculated the most 'tolerated by all' voting system.

Matroyska wrote:

don’t worry about it.

tbh, i’ve been thinking about this for a while and i feel we might have overlooked the simplest option: voting on the rmb. it’s publicly available, so there’s no threat of election officer corruption; you can state your preferences all in one post, so it only needs to take a day, or however long we decide; and with the caveat that once you place your vote you can’t edit it, and you must copy paste from a predefined format so only legitimate ballots are counted, i don’t see why this couldn’t work. the only issue i can think of is the right to vote secretly to avoid coercion, but that’s simply not compatible with having no risk of fraud.
as to which ranked voting system we use, it doesn’t need to be overcomplicated, and i suggest we use the one originally set out by Seven Seas in their bill.
thoughts?

This is what I suggested in the first place - make a 'Lorania Elections' region, so that regular RMB discussion is not interrupted, then TG everyone telling them about the election and how to vote on election day, and people can post a ballot on the RMB. Use STV/ATV - I know that Americans have something about calling it 'ranked voting', but we need to be somewhat technical and specific about these matters. This is the only system that doesn't have any of the issues that we keep referring back to (or at least it minimises them).

We are also going to have to check how to count the votes though - I'm no expert on voting systems but I do know that there are multiple ways of counting STV/ATV votes, however the differences are small I think.

If we have general consensus on this then I think we should look into writing a constitutional amendment on this - I'm happy to write it if everyone's fine with that.

Perhaps an offsite forum? We have too many Lorania related regions. I hate an offsite government but this may very well be our only viable option. You could still announce the candidacy in this RMB.

Sail Nation wrote:

This is what I suggested in the first place - make a 'Lorania Elections' region, so that regular RMB discussion is not interrupted, then TG everyone telling them about the election and how to vote on election day, and people can post a ballot on the RMB. Use STV/ATV - I know that Americans have something about calling it 'ranked voting', but we need to be somewhat technical and specific about these matters. This is the only system that doesn't have any of the issues that we keep referring back to (or at least it minimises them).

We are also going to have to check how to count the votes though - I'm no expert on voting systems but I do know that there are multiple ways of counting STV/ATV votes, however the differences are small I think.

If we have general consensus on this then I think we should look into writing a constitutional amendment on this - I'm happy to write it if everyone's fine with that.

personally, i think a bespoke sub-region is a bit over-bureaucratic and having to navigate to a whole other region might discourage some people from voting. it’s only for one day, when chat would likely be election-focused anyway, and if ballots go in a spoiler then it causes minimal disruption to the rmb. it was a good idea in my opinion though which is why i’m bringing it up again

Ogliacia wrote:

woah megapost

But what if one of the other voting systems is more accepted? Personally, we need to vote on the voting systems.

Here's the list:
UPDATED - Ideas so far - with pros and cons

1. Outsourced Poll - Proposed by Seven Seas

   • Pros - Quick, Eliminates Spoiler Effect.

   • Cons - Anonymity Issues, Allows for Tampering with Results.

2. 3-Poll System - Proposed by Ogliacia

   • Pros - Eliminates Spoiler Effect, More likely for a 'tolerated by all' candidate to win - Regional Unity.

   • Cons - Issues when selecting the 2 most popular candidates, Takes 72 Hours.

3. 2-Poll System - Proposed by 2-4-Dichlorophenoxyacetic Acid

   • Pros - Eliminates Spoiler Effect.

   • Cons - Issues when selecting the 2 most popular candidates.

4. Separate Region/RMB System - Proposed by Sail Nation

   • Pros - Quick, Eliminates Spoiler Effect, More likely for a 'tolerated by all' candidate to win - Regional Unity.

   • Cons - No automatic tallying system, Bit of an ask for voters, Extra region needed.

5. 1 Poll per Rank System - Proposed by Seven Seas

   • Pros - Eliminates Spoiler Effect.

   • Cons - Takes 72 hours or longer.

6. (Current) First-Past-The-Post System - Proposed by Anonymous

   • Pros - Quick.

   • Cons - Spoiler Effect.

7. Sortition-Of-Candidates System - Proposed by Tiddles the Cat

   • Pros - None.

   • Cons - Undemocratic, Allows for Tampering with Results.

Instruction
Everyone, please state your preferences in this format:

By Rank:
A. 5
B. 2
C. 1
D. 3
E. 4
F. 6
G. 7

By Approval:
A. NOT APPROVED
B. APPROVED
C. APPROVED
D. APPROVED
E. NOT APPROVED
F. NOT APPROVED
G. NOT APPROVED

This is so we can try and find the most tolerable voting system for everyone. This is done by checking the voting system with the most approvals. In the event of a tie, I shall check the rankings, and the system with lowest overall ranking (most liked) out of the tied systems.

For Example:

I look for the voting system with the most approvals, and find 2 with 5 approvals each.

Voting System 1: 5 Approvals
Voting System 2: 5 Approvals
Voting System 3: 4 Approvals
Voting System 4: 3 Approvals
Voting System 5: 2 Approvals

I then look for the system (out of the 2) with the lowest overall ranking.

Voting System 1: 1, 2, 3, 2, 3 = 2.2 overall
Voting System 2: 2, 3, 1, 2, 1 = 1.8 overall (Winning System)
It isn’t really a referendum, just a RMB based poll, just so we can get an idea people’s preferences. We need to make a decision on this relatively soon, otherwise we’ll just be endlessly bickering about voting systems. I carefully thought about this way of calculating the most ‘tolerated by all’ voting system, and I believe it’s the way forward. Let’s just give this poll a go, and see where the different voting systems stand.

I know the calculation seems a bit complicated, but it really isn't. It simply requires respondents to rank their favourite voting systems, then say which ones they can approve and not approve. After that, I just count the voting system with the most approvals. If 2 systems come joint first, I'll calculate which one (on average) is the most highly ranked. In the end, we'll have mathematically calculated the most 'tolerated by all' voting system.

it’s important to draw the distinction between the way votes are cast (ie poll, rmb) and the specific variation of ranked choice voting we use to tally the votes and determine the winner; that’s why the idea of google forms or a subregion don’t really belong on this list. casting-wise, as i’ve said, i see no issue with using the rmb. system-wise, i think the whole discussion has overcomplicated the debate a tad and most forms of ranked choice voting will produce the same result in most instances so i don’t really mind. let’s just get this to a conclusion.

I invented beans.

Matroyska wrote:

personally, i think a bespoke sub-region is a bit over-bureaucratic and having to navigate to a whole other region might discourage some people from voting. it’s only for one day, when chat would likely be election-focused anyway, and if ballots go in a spoiler then it causes minimal disruption to the rmb. it was a good idea in my opinion though which is why i’m bringing it up againit’s important to draw the distinction between the way votes are cast (ie poll, rmb) and the specific variation of ranked choice voting we use to tally the votes and determine the winner; that’s why the idea of google forms or a subregion don’t really belong on this list. casting-wise, as i’ve said, i see no issue with using the rmb. system-wise, i think the whole discussion has overcomplicated the debate a tad and most forms of ranked choice voting will produce the same result in most instances so i don’t really mind. let’s just get this to a conclusion.

The only way to conclude this debate, is to vote on the voting systems. We cant just come up with the one we're going to use, without voting on it. We've dragged this debate on too long now, so let's just vote.

My ballot:

By Rank:
A. 5
B. 2
C. 1
D. 3
E. 4
F. 6
G. 7

By Approval:
A. NOT APPROVED
B. APPROVED
C. APPROVED
D. APPROVED
E. NOT APPROVED
F. NOT APPROVED
G. NOT APPROVED

Ogliacia wrote:

-snip-

I see where you're coming from, but this is a bit silly. Impromptu voting on the RMB is a bit odd to be honest, and how do we ensure that we are using the right voting system to decide the voting system.

I joked about having a referendum to decide what voting system to use, as we'd need another referendum to decide how to vote on that referendum - leads to an endless loop of referendums. I am willing to concede to Matroyska that voting on the normal RMB is ok, as long as we use spoilers to hide votes as they said. We really just someone to go through at the end and check whose voted - make sure that they are a citizen, haven't voted multiple times etc.

While we're at it, shall we introduce a reform to prevent nations gaining citizenship on the same day as the election, or a few days before - this increases security and prevents candidates trying to fix elections by getting nations to flood the region to win the election.

I'm happy to enter TG conversations with Matroyska to see whether we can make this happen - as long as there is general approval on the RMB.

The name Tai Pei is now offensive to me.

I demand to be referred to as "God".

Sail Nation wrote:

I see where you're coming from, but this is a bit silly. Impromptu voting on the RMB is a bit odd to be honest, and how do we ensure that we are using the right voting system to decide the voting system.

I joked about having a referendum to decide what voting system to use, as we'd need another referendum to decide how to vote on that referendum - leads to an endless loop of referendums. I am willing to concede to Matroyska that voting on the normal RMB is ok, as long as we use spoilers to hide votes as they said. We really just someone to go through at the end and check whose voted - make sure that they are a citizen, haven't voted multiple times etc.

I understand that you are concerned with unofficial referenda on the RMB, but I really don't see any other way to decide this. We need to find the most tolerated voting system, and my method of calculating it is stated earlier: The voting system with the most approvals wins. If there's a tie, we'll select the system (out of the 2 tied systems) with the highest overall ranking.

Sail Nation wrote:

While we're at it, shall we introduce a reform to prevent nations gaining citizenship on the same day as the election, or a few days before - this increases security and prevents candidates trying to fix elections by getting nations to flood the region to win the election.

I am for this.