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The Friendly Nation of Matroyska

Ogliacia wrote:How many times must I say this? We need to vote on the voting systems, there is no other way of deciding this. Vote by stating which voting systems you approve of, and then by rank. Like this:

By Rank:
A. 5
B. 2
C. 1
D. 3
E. 4
F. 6
G. 7

By Approval:
A. NOT APPROVED
B. APPROVED
C. APPROVED
D. APPROVED
E. NOT APPROVED
F. NOT APPROVED
G. NOT APPROVED

Iím going off for the night now, so I wonít be able to read any replies immediately. See you all tomorrow.

ogliacia, i admire your persistence but perhaps the fact that nobody has yet responded to this with their ranks means they donít want to do that? i can understand why, itís a scary long list. reposting again and again will not convince people

The Confederacy of Ogliacia

Matroyska wrote:ogliacia, i admire your persistence but perhaps the fact that nobody has yet responded to this with their ranks means they donít want to do that? i can understand why, itís a scary long list. reposting again and again will not convince people

Deciding Voting System is important as citizenship, it needs to be decided by the Loranian people. Perhaps we should send a proposal to the HoC, that would authorise this referendum. Only then, will we know the will of the people.

Macari and Galactic Powers

via Fylkirvegr

Scweinrelienen

hola from fylkivegr



The Herbicide of 2-4-Dichlorophenoxyacetic Acid

If anyone is wondering what happened to the crime bill, I did what I could and submitted it to the HoC so that Reps. could submit amendments, but currently cousthei is being a pain in the butt and not letting it on to the floor. So anyway.



The Social Liberal Democracy of Sail Nation

Seven Seas wrote:I like the idea of using some RMB (not necessarily this one) to do regular ranked choice voting. How many others like this idea?

Ah yes my bright idea that I never thought would get anywhere. Yes that would be a good idea.

I'm considering writing a bill on it, will get to work and I will propose it if it seems like it has enough support.

EDIT 1:

Matroyska wrote:ogliacia, i admire your persistence but perhaps the fact that nobody has yet responded to this with their ranks means they donít want to do that? i can understand why, itís a scary long list. reposting again and again will not convince people

I completely agree. Getting people to vote on voting systems is a bit stupid too be honest. And we'd need to know what voting system to use for that vote, and then it just gets complicated. No-one wants to vote, so stop constantly reposting this.
EDIT 2:
This is my first draft for the constitutional amendment. It's a very rough draft right now and definitely needs some grammatical work before I can submit this (as well as finishing up on deciding on what RMB to use), but it's something.

Author: Sail Nation

Preamble: Noting that the current system of voting in Lorania for Prime Ministerial and World Assembly Delegate elections is flawed as it can lead to unpopular candidates winning, and that the system for House of Commons elections requires use of offsite forms, which is complicated and may allow for tampering of results,

Believing that the usage of a new system that uses the Regional Message Board to hold elections is needed,

The House of Commons hereby,

Removes Article IV, Section 4, and renumber accordingly

Creates a new article: 'Article VIII: Elections', and renumber accordingly

  1. Candidates for any election prescribed in this Constitution may only announce their candidacy at that election at any point between one week before the election and the day before the election.

  2. Elections for the office of Prime Minister and World Assembly Delegate must use Alternative Vote, and elections for the House of Commons must use Single Transferable Vote.

  3. Citizens may vote in elections by posting on the Loranian Elections (a region created specifically for the purposes of holding elections) Regional Message Board, ranking candidates in order of preference.

  4. Only citizens residing in the region at the commencement of the voting period may vote in an election.

Removes Article VIII (Final Provisions), Section 3, and renumber accordingly

Read dispatch


Finally, I was looking at the constitution while writing this (as I always do when writing amendments), and can I just ask Devionsa to add the recent amendments made, such as my one on the definition for abuse of power, and Matroyska's one about when officials enter and leave office.

The Friendly Nation of Matroyska

Sail Nation wrote:Ah yes my bright idea that I never thought would get anywhere. Yes that would be a good idea.

I'm considering writing a bill on it, will get to work and I will propose it if it seems like it has enough support.

EDIT 1:
I completely agree. Getting people to vote on voting systems is a bit stupid too be honest. And we'd need to know what voting system to use for that vote, and then it just gets complicated. No-one wants to vote, so stop constantly reposting this.
EDIT 2:
This is my first draft for the constitutional amendment. It's a very rough draft right now and definitely needs some grammatical work before I can submit this (as well as finishing up on deciding on what RMB to use), but it's something.

Author: Sail Nation

Preamble: Noting that the current system of voting in Lorania for Prime Ministerial and World Assembly Delegate elections is flawed as it can lead to unpopular candidates winning, and that the system for House of Commons elections requires use of offsite forms, which is complicated and may allow for tampering of results,

Believing that the usage of a new system that uses the Regional Message Board to hold elections is needed,

The House of Commons hereby,

Removes Article IV, Section 4, and renumber accordingly

Creates a new article: 'Article VIII: Elections', and renumber accordingly

  1. Candidates for any election prescribed in this Constitution may only announce their candidacy at that election at any point between one week before the election and the day before the election.

  2. Elections for the office of Prime Minister and World Assembly Delegate must use Alternative Vote, and elections for the House of Commons must use Single Transferable Vote.

  3. Citizens may vote in elections by posting on the Loranian Elections (a region created specifically for the purposes of holding elections) Regional Message Board, ranking candidates in order of preference.

  4. Only citizens residing in the region at the commencement of the voting period may vote in an election.

Removes Article VIII (Final Provisions), Section 3, and renumber accordingly

Read dispatch


Finally, I was looking at the constitution while writing this (as I always do when writing amendments), and can I just ask Devionsa to add the recent amendments made, such as my one on the definition for abuse of power, and Matroyska's one about when officials enter and leave office.

iím glad someoneís finally making a start on this. i notice the bill also sneaks in a lock at the HoC capacity at 5 - i want to object on grounds of needing to be scalable, but pragmatically youíre probably right.
can i suggest that for the post ranking candidates, we create a dispatch that can be copy pasted and candidateís name inserted? this means that only ballots sticking to the exact correct formatting can be counted. there probably also needs to be a clause forbidding editing a ballot post, as that could cause double counting or similar confusion
also ns glitch where i donít get pinged strikes again, anyone else getting that?

The Social Liberal Democracy of Sail Nation

Matroyska wrote:iím glad someoneís finally making a start on this. i notice the bill also sneaks in a lock at the HoC capacity at 5 - i want to object on grounds of needing to be scalable, but pragmatically youíre probably right.
can i suggest that for the post ranking candidates, we create a dispatch that can be copy pasted and candidateís name inserted? this means that only ballots sticking to the exact correct formatting can be counted. there probably also needs to be a clause forbidding editing a ballot post, as that could cause double counting or similar confusion
also ns glitch where i donít get pinged strikes again, anyone else getting that?

OK I'll look into that.

On the extra thing I sneaked in - the HoC generally only ever has 5 MPs in it, and we don't usually have enough citizens to make it enough to have more, and even if we did, we probably wouldn't have enough active nations to fill the extra spots. But I have a workaround - the HoC can amend the constitution at any time, so an amendment can be written to change 5 to 6, 7, 8, 9 or whatever.

What we do is distribute a ballot via either TGs or dispatches, which has all the formatting, and then people just fill in the numbers into it like what happens in real elections.

I don't know what to do about editing ballots - do we count any edited ballots as forfeit or is that too harsh?

The Herbicide of 2-4-Dichlorophenoxyacetic Acid

I got an idea: if it ainít broke ó donít fix it.

The Kingdom of Liberated Wales

Seven Seas wrote:Hello... hello... hello... hello? Is there anyone there... there... there... there.?

Na, sorry friend. The only countries here are me 'an Angland, but I wouldn't say there's anyone 'ere sides me.

The Social Liberal Democracy of Sail Nation

2-4-Dichlorophenoxyacetic Acid wrote:I got an idea: if it ainít broke ó donít fix it.

The problem is that the system kind of is broken.

The Confederacy of Ogliacia

Sail Nation wrote:EDIT 1:
I completely agree. Getting people to vote on voting systems is a bit stupid too be honest. And we'd need to know what voting system to use for that vote, and then it just gets complicated. No-one wants to vote, so stop constantly reposting this.

Ok then, it seems that no one else is in support for a referendum on this. I suppose Iíll just shut myself up after this post.

Sail Nation wrote:EDIT 2:
This is my first draft for the constitutional amendment. It's a very rough draft right now and definitely needs some grammatical work before I can submit this (as well as finishing up on deciding on what RMB to use), but it's something.
Author: Sail Nation

Preamble: Noting that the current system of voting in Lorania for Prime Ministerial and World Assembly Delegate elections is flawed as it can lead to unpopular candidates winning, and that the system for House of Commons elections requires use of offsite forms, which is complicated and may allow for tampering of results,

Believing that the usage of a new system that uses the Regional Message Board to hold elections is needed,

The House of Commons hereby,

Removes Article IV, Section 4, and renumber accordingly

Creates a new article: 'Article VIII: Elections', and renumber accordingly

  1. Candidates for any election prescribed in this Constitution may only announce their candidacy at that election at any point between one week before the election and the day before the election.

  2. Elections for the office of Prime Minister and World Assembly Delegate must use Alternative Vote, and elections for the House of Commons must use Single Transferable Vote.

  3. Citizens may vote in elections by posting on the Loranian Elections (a region created specifically for the purposes of holding elections) Regional Message Board, ranking candidates in order of preference.

  4. Only citizens residing in the region at the commencement of the voting period may vote in an election.

Removes Article VIII (Final Provisions), Section 3, and renumber accordingly

Read dispatch

Good amendment, though I do have a couple of suggestions:

1. Make a clause that says something along the lines of: ďDuring an election, the Electoral Officer must screenshot every original (unedited) ballot, and then post them on a dispatch. If a ballot is edited within the legal voting period, the Electoral Officer shall screenshot said ballot and post it on the ballots dispatch, and shall remove the original ballot. If a ballot is edited after the legal voting period, said edited ballot will not be counted, and the Electoral Officer shall not post that ballot onto the ballots dispatch.Ē

2. Add in the ĎAllow MPs to sponsor citizens to debate in the HoCí clause. :)

The Kingdom of Tai Pei

Liberated Wales wrote:Na, sorry friend. The only countries here are me 'an Angland, but I wouldn't say there's anyone 'ere sides me.

Bri'ish >:(

The Friendly Nation of Matroyska

Ogliacia wrote:2. Add in the ĎAllow MPs to sponsor citizens to debate in the HoCí clause. :)

Sail Nation both of these HoC amendments probably belong in a separate bill, although i am in support of them both. that way disagreement about the voting system stuff wonít cause the uncontroversial hoc amendments to fail

The Kingdom of Tai Pei

"It's not cuul to Juul in schuul."

-Sun Tzu i think

The Social Liberal Democracy of Sail Nation

Ogliacia wrote:

1. Make a clause that says something along the lines of: ďDuring an election, the Electoral Officer must screenshot every original (unedited) ballot, and then post them on a dispatch. If a ballot is edited within the legal voting period, the Electoral Officer shall screenshot said ballot and post it on the ballots dispatch, and shall remove the original ballot. If a ballot is edited after the legal voting period, said edited ballot will not be counted, and the Electoral Officer shall not post that ballot onto the ballots dispatch.Ē

I see where you're coming from, but I don't envisage an electoral officer staying up during the entire voting period, glaring at the activity screen and checking every single post before screenshotting it. Seems a bit unreasonable to me, I don't know about anyone else, but I value my sleep, and I'd say that most of us have either schools to attend, university lectures to go to or jobs - being on NS for an entire day seems unreasonable.

I also don't know how someone can attempt to rig an election using STV/AV. If you want a candidate to win, you put them as your first choice, and your vote will only change when said candidate gets eliminated, or in the case of STV, wins with a surplus. Trying to get a bad candidate into the final round is pointless, as all votes are cast at the same time, so you can't get people to change their votes if a bad candidate enters the final round.

Can you give me an example of why this would be needed. Remember, STV/AV are systems where candidates are ranked, so there are no issues due to problems with tactical voting that there are with multiple poll systems. If you do have an issue that is fully explained, then I will try to fix it - we're working on this together here.

Ogliacia wrote:

2. Add in the ĎAllow MPs to sponsor citizens to debate in the HoCí clause. :)

A-ha. I've been wanting to do this for a while - its something I was skeptical of for a while, but I've seen it work in Thaecia, and it generally makes sense. But that will start to turn this into a controversial amendment.

Matroyska wrote:Sail Nation both of these HoC amendments probably belong in a separate bill, although i am in support of them both. that way disagreement about the voting system stuff wonít cause the uncontroversial hoc amendments to fail

Seems to be a solution. I saw the original HoC reform in there as more housekeeping than a highly-controversial move, but now that we've got this one, I might make a HoC reform constitutional amendment, with both of these in it.

On this, some of you may remember my early constitutional amendments, where I would bundle up all sorts of amendments into one bill. Since then, I've realised that this really doesn't work (mainly due to seeing how real life systems work - for example, the first few amendments to the US constitution happened on the same day - but they were all separate amendments as they did separate things).

Macari, Matroyska, and Ogliacia

via Auctor

The Self-Administrative City of Tinhampton

2-4-Dichlorophenoxyacetic Acid wrote:If anyone is wondering what happened to the crime bill, I did what I could and submitted it to the HoC so that Reps. could submit amendments, but currently cousthei is being a pain in the butt and not letting it on to the floor. So anyway.

Lorania's RMB over here is a perfectly acceptable place to draft your stuff before you submit it :P

The Social Liberal Democracy of Sail Nation

Preamble: Believing that specific parts of the House of Commons procedure are flawed,

Calling for reform to enhance participation in democracy,

The House of Commons hereby:

Amends Article IV, Section 2:The House shall be comprised of five Members of Parliament, or MPs, who shall be empowered to present their own bills to the House's attention, sponsor bills written by citizens who are not MPs (including Cabinet members), and debate and vote on bills presented to the House. The amount of MPs residing in Lorania to form the House shall be defined as one-tenth of the number of citizens of Lorania, at the time of their election, rounded down to a whole number; further, every constituent region of the Loranian Union (see Article VIII: The Loranian Union) must also elect one citizen to represent their region in the House. MPs may not be added or removed in the middle of a term if the number of citizens increases or decreases.

Adds Article IV Section 8, and renumber accordingly: MPs may sponsor other citizens of Lorania to speak in any debate. This is done by the MP posting on the Loranian House of Commons Regional Message Board that they are sponsoring said citizen, and pinging the speaker in that post to let them know. An MP may only sponsor one citizen per debate. The sponsored citizen will not be allowed to vote on the bill.

Read dispatch


First draft of my HoC Reform Constitutional Amendment. This one is probably a bit controversial.

The Kingdom of Tai Pei

Sail Nation wrote:
Preamble: Believing that specific parts of the House of Commons procedure are flawed,

Calling for reform to enhance participation in democracy,

The House of Commons hereby:

Amends Article IV, Section 2:The House shall be comprised of five Members of Parliament, or MPs, who shall be empowered to present their own bills to the House's attention, sponsor bills written by citizens who are not MPs (including Cabinet members), and debate and vote on bills presented to the House. The amount of MPs residing in Lorania to form the House shall be defined as one-tenth of the number of citizens of Lorania, at the time of their election, rounded down to a whole number; further, every constituent region of the Loranian Union (see Article VIII: The Loranian Union) must also elect one citizen to represent their region in the House. MPs may not be added or removed in the middle of a term if the number of citizens increases or decreases.

Adds Article IV Section 8, and renumber accordingly: MPs may sponsor other citizens of Lorania to speak in any debate. This is done by the MP posting on the Loranian House of Commons Regional Message Board that they are sponsoring said citizen, and pinging the speaker in that post to let them know. An MP may only sponsor one citizen per debate. The sponsored citizen will not be allowed to vote on the bill.

Read dispatch


First draft of my HoC Reform Constitutional Amendment. This one is probably a bit controversial.

nerds

The Kingdom of Liberated Wales

Tai Pei wrote:Bri'ish >:(

Bri'ish? More like... like.... I'll think of something.

The Kingdom of Tai Pei

One of the greatest mistakes the American revolutionaries made was stopping on the North American continent, we should have never let the Bri'ish continue as a nation!

We should have turned all of Albion into a massive airstrip or a giant Walmart, with Ireland being the parking lot. :>

The Confederacy of Ogliacia

Sail Nation wrote:I see where you're coming from, but I don't envisage an electoral officer staying up during the entire voting period, glaring at the activity screen and checking every single post before screenshotting it. Seems a bit unreasonable to me, I don't know about anyone else, but I value my sleep, and I'd say that most of us have either schools to attend, university lectures to go to or jobs - being on NS for an entire day seems unreasonable.

I also don't know how someone can attempt to rig an election using STV/AV. If you want a candidate to win, you put them as your first choice, and your vote will only change when said candidate gets eliminated, or in the case of STV, wins with a surplus. Trying to get a bad candidate into the final round is pointless, as all votes are cast at the same time, so you can't get people to change their votes if a bad candidate enters the final round.

Can you give me an example of why this would be needed. Remember, STV/AV are systems where candidates are ranked, so there are no issues due to problems with tactical voting that there are with multiple poll systems. If you do have an issue that is fully explained, then I will try to fix it - we're working on this together here.

Ok, hereís a scenario:

  1. Election Starts.

  2. Person A writes their ballot.

  3. Voting Deadline ends.

  4. Person A edits their ballot.

  5. Electoral officer notices ballot was changed after deadline.

  6. Electoral officer is forced to discard the ballot, since they have no idea of what Person Aís original ballot was.

This will cause ballots edited after the voting deadline to be discarded, which hurts voter turnout and possibly democracy itself.

The Kingdom of Tai Pei

Tai Pei's biggest newspaper, Voice of Tai Pei, is legally required to be fair and unbiased, how does it do this, as bias is unavoidable?

V.O.T.P. sees if the number of angry letters sent in the mailbox is around the same amount from either side, if that is the case, they've done a good job.

The Kingdom of Liberated Wales

Tai Pei wrote:One of the greatest mistakes the American revolutionaries made was stopping on the North American continent, we should have never let the Bri'ish continue as a nation!

We should have turned all of Albion into a massive airstrip or a giant Walmart, with Ireland being the parking lot. :>

Why stop with Britain? You've gotta think bigger.

The Kingdom of Tai Pei

Liberated Wales wrote:Why stop with Britain? You've gotta think bigger.

The mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell.

The Thalassocracy of Seven Seas

Ogliacia wrote:Ok, hereís a scenario:

  1. Election Starts.

  2. Person A writes their ballot.

  3. Voting Deadline ends.

  4. Person A edits their ballot.

  5. Electoral officer notices ballot was changed after deadline.

  6. Electoral officer is forced to discard the ballot, since they have no idea of what Person Aís original ballot was.

This will cause ballots edited after the voting deadline to be discarded, which hurts voter turnout and possibly democracy itself.

If someone changes their ballot, why should we care about counting theirs?

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