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The Commonwealth of Narland

Auxorii wrote:Any evidence for either of these claims?

Asking for proof of known peculiarities from established Americana is rather surprising. I am not sure where you are coming from by asking -- if I am off track to your questions let me know. I hope these helps answer some of those:

>>>>>https://www.nytimes.com/1984/01/11/world/us-and-vatican-restore-full-ties-after-117-years.html

Note: I no longer maintain a subscription to the NYT since they became a subversive anti-American organization. I am of the opinion that The Fabulous Furry Freakbrothers comix are a more entertaining source of false information. But the URL title gets the idea across.

>>>>>https://www.the-american-interest.com/2013/02/02/americas-religious-divide/

"For its part, the Catholic Church didn’t much like American democracy during much of our history. Pope Pius IX issued a famous encyclical that condemned as heretical ideas like religious freedom, the separation of church and state and the existence of secular public schools. The “heresy” of Americanism was condemned by Pope Leo XIII in 1899 out of the belief that American style individualism and skepticism about authority was infiltrating the American Catholic community. It wasn’t until the Second Vatican Council that the Catholic Church formally endorsed the American understanding of religious freedom."

>>>>>https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/review-of-politics/article/abs/americanism-and-frontier-catholicism/517BB084DE53CCDF8E2D45683C41F578

McAvoy, T. (1943). Americanism and Frontier Catholicism. The Review of Politics, 5(3), 275-301. doi:10.1017/S003467050000245X

"One of the most confusing incidents in the history of Roman Catholicism in the United States is the condemnation of Americanism by Pope Leo XIII. In his apostolic letter, Testem Benevolentiae, of January 22, 1899, Pope Leo condemned ... methods of apologetics ... to the neglect of dogmatic teachings. These doctrines had acquired the name of Americanism ... partly as a result of a controversy ... in several European Catholic periodicals. The subsequent denials of most of the American prelates that the heretical Americanism ever existed in the United States, together with the counter-charges of certain conservative prelates and foreign-language groups, only add to the confusion of the historical account. The astute silence of most Catholic historians on the controversy for fear of reawakening the sharp animosities of the time has given rise to many misconceptions about the affair, even causing some suspicion that Pope Leo in some way condemned American national traits or even the loyalty of American Catholics to American political institutions."

>>>> Billington, Ray Allen, “Tentative Bibliography of Anti-Catholic Propaganda in the United States (1800-1860),” Catholic Historical Review 18, no. 4 (January 1933): 492–513.Google Scholar
>>>>>

I would recommend 3 books. The first two reflect the Cold War shift Of Protestants and Roman Catholics toward agreement with each other against the godless Atheism of Soviet Marxism that occured between WW2, and 1990s. Of course Americans (since the 1960s) raised as practical Atheists (even those who are "churched") aren't going to concerned with (and if they ideologically consistent with their public school education upbringing should be perturbed by) the sentiments of those for whom getting orthodoxy correct is a literal matter eternal life or eternal torment after death.

>>>>>Roman Catholics and Evangelicals: Agreements and Differences by Norman Geisler and Ralph MacKenzie

>>>>>Roman Catholicism: Evangelical Protestants Analyze What Divides and Unites Us. John Armstrong

The third is small but reflects the attitude and sentiment of Americans historically against the errors and abuses (in view of Protestantism) Roman Catholicsm, which is quite toned down from the sentiments routinely expressed from John Wycliffe till now.

>>>>>Fast Facts On Roman Catholicism by John Ankerberg, John Weldon



The Road to Serfdom of Highway Eighty-Eight

The decline of America is simply a reflection of the overall decline in Protestantism, and slowly, but more steadily, Catholicism and Christianity, Islam, Judaism, the Hindus, and even more slowly, Buddhism.

The Protestant world declines the quickest today as a direct result of its foundation: the rejection of tradition, authority, ritual and initiation, and it’s confidence in reducing everything to belief and the mind. The relativism of today is a natural child of the Protestant Solas, Utopian pretensions to the literal and absolute equality of primitive man. For all the evils, perversions, superstitions, and faults that might have arisen from Catholicism, there is not one which has caused such a swift and terrible retreat amongst Men back towards chaos, atheism, credulity, amorality, and infidelity as that unparalleled invention of Protestantism: Sola Fide, the insistence that simply believing one’s belief to be right is enough to justify oneself before God and Man.



The Commonwealth of Narland

Highway Eighty-Eight wrote:The above post is an article from a magazine I have in my library. I’ve replaced the names of two organizations and the terms associated with them because I don’t think they are particularly necessary, and the article is more relevant without them.

Some of these are typical conversations that one would find in a barber shop of the time period. Americans were good at small talk and table talk conversations that tended to drive Europeans of the same time period bonkers. TV gradually took place of our artful conversation.

Imho we went from being our own sources of broad interpersonal communication to couch potatoes with advertising jingles in our heads. You didn't have to agree with the person you were talking with, you just added your own opinion in such a way that the conversation went to a place where both agreed, or you talked about sex, politics, or religion that you could agree upon. If you didn't have even that in common one told an innocuous joke or two and talked about the weather. Imnsho most Americans today couldn't converse their way out of a wet paper bag. Never mix metaphors midstream, btw. :)

Some of it is from seeing God as the Architect of the Universe as they attempted to apply it in 20th Century America (some better than others). And some of it is quirky people being free to be quirky at a time quirky was acceptable. It is also the end of an era, when just 50 - 60 years before, everyone and their dog belonged to a benevolence society to government taking over the functions of societal welfare from them. I do not think they saw the Cultural Revolution for what it was -- the death knell of Americanism as the hope of the future.



The Commonwealth of Narland

Highway Eighty-Eight wrote:The decline of America is simply a reflection of the overall decline in Protestantism, and slowly, but more steadily, Catholicism and Christianity, Islam, Judaism, the Hindus, and even more slowly, Buddhism.

The Protestant world declines the quickest today as a direct result of its foundation: the rejection of tradition, authority, ritual and initiation, and it’s confidence in reducing everything to belief and the mind. The relativism of today is a natural child of the Protestant Solas, Utopian pretensions to the literal and absolute equality of primitive man. For all the evils, perversions, superstitions, and faults that might have arisen from Catholicism, there is not one which has caused such a swift and terrible retreat amongst Men back towards chaos, atheism, credulity, amorality, and infidelity as that unparalleled invention of Protestantism: Sola Fide, the insistence that simply believing one’s belief to be right is enough to justify oneself before God and Man.

I have to disagree. That is quite a broad brush considering the aim of Reformed Christianity is to conform oneself (semper reformata) to the ancient catholic, orthodox, and evangelical faith once and for all handed to the saints. There are libertines on and in all sides in all large enough groups, sects, and denominations. Antinomianism and the liberalisation of Christianity is a phenomena warned against, as is the opposite error of legalism. Each extreme is more successful in some areas and times than others.

My argument would be quite to the contrary. Relativism is a child of rejecting God's glory, His Christ, salvation by grace through faith, and living according to the Word. Sola Fide (as it was later encapsulated) was a response to the Vatican encouraging the purchase God's favor through money or works. The equivalent is modern day televangelist telling people that God will bless them if they send him/her their money.

Sola Fide is solely trusting in the work of Christ on the cross for our salvation in order to be justified by God, not by offering God our works, or our money to be justified. (John 3:16-17; Romans 4:21, 5:1; Ephesians 2:9) We are not saved by our good works, but God saves us for good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10). This is different from nuda fide, naked faith without any fruition of good works that follow (James 2:14-19).

What has screwed up mankind is mankind. Anywhere there is one person there is a problem. Anywhere there are more than two people, there are problems aplenty. God offers to save us from ourselves. He gives us a rule to live by. And gives us family, friends, and community to learn to love, serve, and to cherish each other and Him thereby. When done well there is Liberty (Leviticus 25:10; John 8:32, 2 Corinthians 3:17) when not done well or at all their is tyranny, misery, and a myriad of evils.



The Republic of Miami Jai-Alai 3

This is the second time I have requested an embassy exchange between Libertatem and Greater Miami Shores 3, I hope it will be accepted and not ignored again, but it is the their right to do so. I don't know who decides.



The Commonwealth of Narland

Highway Eighty-Eight wrote:The decline of America is simply a reflection of the overall decline in Protestantism, and slowly, but more steadily, Catholicism and Christianity, Islam, Judaism, the Hindus, and even more slowly, Buddhism.

The Protestant world declines the quickest today as a direct result of its foundation: the rejection of tradition, authority, ritual and initiation, and it’s confidence in reducing everything to belief and the mind. The relativism of today is a natural child of the Protestant Solas, Utopian pretensions to the literal and absolute equality of primitive man. For all the evils, perversions, superstitions, and faults that might have arisen from Catholicism, there is not one which has caused such a swift and terrible retreat amongst Men back towards chaos, atheism, credulity, amorality, and infidelity as that unparalleled invention of Protestantism: Sola Fide, the insistence that simply believing one’s belief to be right is enough to justify oneself before God and Man.

I apologize for getting off track. My intent was to explain the deep divide between the political institution of the Vatican state and American Christianity as expressed through Federal governance until the Cultural Revolution of the 1960s. It is one of the reasons Kennedy barely got elected. It is also the main reason why Roman Catholicism started their own school system in the 1800s alongside the public school system as its prayer, bible reading, and bible studies distinctly Non-Sectarian (anathema to the Vatican.)

I did not want to go into a defense of American popular culture. I am an archivist at heart, and any the preservation of what once was in an objective encapsulation was is worth defending. General Americana from before the cultural shift is one such thing, even when I do not agree with it.

I did want to point out that the purpose of American Education as envisioned by our Founding Fathers and middle Americans during the 1st political era, is to matriculate ethically upstanding and morally astute, mature and productive self-governing individuals who have learned godly self-contentment in a free society and open society freely engaging in life, liberty, and property (including the right to pursuit of happiness -- the right to own one's own selves as their own means of production, e.g., to start, operate, and engage their own business(es) unmolested from the state) in objective reality. And who were at the time were a predominately (Protestant -- work hard, play hard, die hard, keep your nose clean, and keep it out of other people's business) Christian people living with the political aim of Liberty and Equality.

The purpose of Progressive Modern Education started by Dewey (and the rational administrative state) in the fundamental transformation of the Public Schools during the 20th Century is to matriculate rebellious adults divorced from their language, heritage, and culture, conformable to practical Atheism, and amenable to rule by bureaucratic Socialism who are encouraged to go on the government dole (as a bureaucrat, academician, or public taxpayer monetary recipient), or if one must, to go out and get a job (as opposed to go out and make jobs), to further social malcontent in the name of Modernity, Education and Progress -- or whatever the current peer pressure buzzwords are -- diversity, wokeness, etc. They will then be ready for the revolutionary vanguard to come.

The purpose of Roman Catholic education is to matriculate good and faithful, mature and responsible Roman Catholics communicants who have a healthy respect for the peculiarities and distinctives of the Roman Catholic Rite, are content with their vocation, are ethically upstanding, and have a healthy disregard for political, religious, and ethical systems not approved by the Papacy.



The Commonwealth of Narland

Miami Jai-Alai 3 wrote:This is the second time I have requested an embassy exchange between Libertatem and Greater Miami Shores 3, I hope it will be accepted and not ignored again, but it is the their right to do so. I don't know who decides.

Good question. Try contacting Auxorii or Meincraft.

The Road to Serfdom of Highway Eighty-Eight

Narland wrote:Some of it is from seeing God as the Architect of the Universe as they attempted to apply it in 20th Century America (some better than others). And some of it is quirky people being free to be quirky at a time quirky was acceptable. It is also the end of an era, when just 50 - 60 years before, everyone and their dog belonged to a benevolence society to government taking over the functions of societal welfare from them. I do not think they saw the Cultural Revolution for what it was -- the death knell of Americanism as the hope of the future.

The fraternity in the US had seen its highest membership just a decade prior to printing. Since then it has been a steady decline, coupled with a rapid increase in the US population. Today, according to something I read, our numbers are around 800,000 unevenly distributed between the 51 mainline grand lodges, along with probably 100,000 (My own high estimate. Wikipedia claims 300,000, which is almost certainly false.) constituting the membership of the 41 legitimate and predominantly African grand lodges (These 41 do not publish statistics related to their numbers, for fear of pressure to merge into the mainline grand lodges). The GL of Iran in Exile also operates within the US, with an undoubtably tiny and shrinking membership. Some have claimed that the decline in membership is simply a return to natural levels from the previous boom, but this ignores the fact that the American population has only increased exponentially. My fraternity was not and is not, and has never been one of the Friendly Societies, but rather, something else. We do not engage in the insurance business (some grand lodges explicitly forbid it), and membership within the fraternity, and the payment of dues, does not translate into any amount of welfare, insurance, pension, or other such allotment, rather, support between members of the fraternity is governed by the individual obligations of the members. That said, we suffer the same, the only difference is that we probably do better (We've certainly survived better than the Woodmen, Oddfellows, Knights of Columbus, to name a few). I have no doubt that we will continue to exist and have an impact for at least another two centuries, but between now and then, many changes will take place, hopefully for the better.

The Most Serene Free Republics of Auxorii

Narland wrote:Asking for proof of known peculiarities from established Americana is rather surprising. I am not sure where you are coming from by asking -- if I am off track to your questions let me know. I hope these helps answer some of those:

No, this is not “established Americana”, it is just anti-Catholicisms that have persisted based off of nuggets of information without any actual knowledge of the subject.

First, you’ve said nothing to source your claim of “everyone involved in the Lincoln assassination was a Jesuit”, which is just a ridiculous claim at that, a claim that would only pass in a place that has absolutely no idea what a Jesuit is.

Also, if you read the NY Times article you sourced, you’d see that relations between the U.S and the Vatican were none as a result of anti-Catholic sentiment from the U.S, not the other way around as you make it out to be: ”Establishment of full diplomatic ties with the Vatican was made possible by a move by Congress last year lifting a prohibition on diplomatic relations enacted in 1867. The original, a product of widespread anti-Roman Catholic sentiment and concern about the struggle for Italian unification, led to the withdrawal of the American minister to the Vatican, Rufus King.”

As for the references to Testem benevolentiae nostrae written by Pope Leo XIII, this is not “Americanism” being declared a “heresy” - the letter is instead an informal, personal letter (that is, of no canonical consequence) from the Pope to an American Bishop where he doesn’t even claim that what he sees as vices are even present in American society, he just claims that if they are or if American society allows them to appear, the hierarchy of the Church needs to address against them.

Ironically, what Pope Leo XIII was talking about is exactly what did happen in the eventual Vatican II Council.

Narland wrote:Sola Fide is solely trusting in the work of Christ on the cross for our salvation in order to be justified by God, not by offering God our works, or our money to be justified. (John 3:16-17; Romans 4:21, 5:1; Ephesians 2:9) We are not saved by our good works, but God saves us for good works

Allow me to reference other scriptures, I would recommend for your reading that you read the books in their entirety, starting with the Book of James:

”But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.”
James 2:18-24

Narland wrote:I have to disagree. That is quite a broad brush considering the aim of Reformed Christianity is to conform oneself (semper reformata) to the ancient catholic, orthodox, and evangelical faith once and for all handed to the saints.

This is quite ironic as Reformed Christianity is the very thing that led millions away from that very faith you talk about. Reformed Christianity is the watered down faith - it goes contrary to all of the Church Fathers and the scriptures themselves.

The Road to Serfdom of Highway Eighty-Eight

A reminder that we threw away the Vatican’s contribution to the Washington monument

The states of balloon

Highway Eighty-Eight wrote:A reminder that we threw away the Vatican’s contribution to the Washington monument

based



The Commonwealth of Narland

I will respond where we left off in a week. I just lost two friends, one my best friend of twenty years and business partner. Be back soon.

via Greater Miami Shores 3

Greater miami shores 3

Thank you and Gracias.

The Free Republic of Suzi Island

Narland wrote:I will respond where we left off in a week. I just lost two friends, one my best friend of twenty years and business partner. Be back soon.

Sorry for your losses. I and other Tatemites look forward to your return.

The Road to Serfdom of Highway Eighty-Eight

René Guénon’s Theosophy: History of a Pseudo-Religion is just... awesome.

“ It goes without saying that Blavatsky herself was far from adopting a similar regime. While energetically recommending vegetarianism and even proclaiming it indispensable to ‘spiritual development’, she never adopted it herself, nor did Olcott; moreover she smoked almost continually from morning till night. Not everyone is equally amenable to suggestion, however, and it was probably when Mme Blavatsky was powerless to bring about hallucinations of sight and hearing that she had recourse to ‘Mahatmas in muslin’ and her silver bell.
The attraction exercised by Mme Blavatsky is all the more astonishing in that her physical appearance was far from pleasant. W.T. Stead went so far as to say that she was ‘hideously ugly-looking, monstrously obese, of crude and violent manners, a dreadful character, and a profane tongue’; and again that she was ‘cynical, mocking, absurd, and impassioned,’—in a word that she was ‘everything that a hierophant of the divine mysteries must not be.’”

”Theosophy is above all an instrument in the service of British imperialism. It must have been so from the beginning or near the beginning, for trustworthy witnesses have given assurance that during her stay in India Mme Blavatsky received a significant annual subvention (the figure of twelve thousand rupees has been suggested) from the English authorities. It seems that this was the price of certain services rendered against her country of origin...”

The Free Republic of Suzi Island

Highway Eighty-Eight wrote:A reminder that we threw away the Vatican’s contribution to the Washington monument

Never knew that

The Road to Serfdom of Highway Eighty-Eight

Suzi Island wrote:Never knew that

By “we” I mean Americans.

The specific Americans were Nativists.

While the relationship was somewhat complex, examples like this are very common in American history, and only caused greater tensions between the Church and American society.

The Free Republic of Suzi Island

Highway Eighty-Eight wrote:By “we” I mean Americans.

The specific Americans were Nativists.

While the relationship was somewhat complex, examples like this are very common in American history, and only caused greater tensions between the Church and American society.

There was definitely a mistrust of catholics up until JFK

Miri islands

Suzi Island wrote:There was definitely a mistrust of catholics up until JFK

My grandparents got hit with anti Catholic discrimination till the 70s

The Free Republic of Suzi Island

Hopefully the GOP will do more than just bluster about the Mar-a-Lago raid but I have my doubts

The Republic of Miami Jai-Alai 3

Miri islands wrote:My grandparents got hit with anti Catholic discrimination till the 70s

Sad, Bad.



The Commonwealth of Narland

Greetings Libertatem.

I had a bunch of stuff on the other comp before the move regarding the history of anti-roman catholic sentiment in the US. I think I was trying to relay why it was so important to them back then. When it gets here I will restart the convo if you like. Over the years I have become attached to Libertatem and NS. I really enjoy the interaction (as well as one can for online activity.)

I have gotten out livestock and produce, and have moved an idaho 'burb. If the economy starts to recover under Trump after 2024 from the 1970s tax and spenders. Until then, the wind is a bit out of my sails. I am crazy enough to give it another go in about 5 or 6 years.

Auxorii, Am Israel, and Von jhoram

The Road to Serfdom of Highway Eighty-Eight

A warning to the Christians against the foolish acceptance of wrong as in anyway equal to, or just as valid, or just as deserving, as good, and the current domination of those who reject the very existence or unknowability of Truth:

The Nazarene was asked, “What is Truth?” He did not ask the question.

The Free Republic of Suzi Island

How's everyone doing?

Narland, Miri islands, and Miami Jai-Alai 3



The Most Serene Free Republics of Auxorii

Suzi Island wrote:How's everyone doing?

Grand, yourself?

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